Comments - Latest Popular Stories, Instablogs Community by Celsoldc

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Celso,

Nice post!

I think such discrimination exists in all cities. Shopping malls are extremely class conscious destinations. Rich-poor divide is becoming more geographical and creating new boundaries within cities. We too have sprawling slums and sprawling upsacle shopping malls thriving at two different places. With no overlap.

Is globalisation to be blamed for such polarity?

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Thank you!

I guess globalisation can be blames, because some ”bad” tendencies were imported from rich countries. Those tendencies here just make the poorest more unwelcome and more poor yet.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Your articles about Brazil, Celso, make me raring to go to Brazil next week! LOL What an interesting place!

Malls are a manifestation of modern life. We can’t escape them. The concept of the huge, excellently air-conditioned one-stop gigantic shop augurs well with the problems of metropolitan places today such as traffic, congestion in the streets, oil price hike, etc.

There’s something that struck me there. If malls want to be accessible to all, and I mean all possible customers, then why discriminate against some? Doesn’t that defeat the very principle of consumerist haven?

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Grace, I think they don’t trust people who they think don’t have buying power.

And such people are not their target customers either! Its all niche business...

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

If you like crazy people and crazy places, come here!

At first, malls were only to higher middle class, then middle class and now there are for lower middle class. But the thing is that consumerism in Brazil is something still is a privilege.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Over here, there is a chain of malls that hit the gold mine because its target clientele is the C-D-E crowd. It’s been raking profits! It has opened branches all over the country, and of course, has become the most popular mall chain in the country because the majority here is C-D-E crowd.

In fact, if you compare, this chain of malls is far more profitable than the classier malls where the more affluent go.

Plus, I think the situation is that the rich don’t really go to malls. They order their good via phone for delivery, or online, or go to designers for clothes, etc.

So, really, if we look at it, malls are for the masses. And, often, masses mean the poor.

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

It’s good to know that Philippines are doing the right thing (giving the chance for all to be able to buy things - if necessary or no, itś another subject).

But here, the fact is that until 10 to 20 years ago, only a few businessmen and chains have plans for the D-E classes. It was like they didn’t exist before. Only now there are plans to reach these popular classes.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

For the sake of profit and the ever-coveted bottom line, malls and shopping centers should be populist. It’s simply good business sense to uphold the right of every individual to spend his/her income of he/she chooses to. (I wonder how malls can exist in non-democratic places? LOL)

Ans also, again, for the sake of good business returns, malls should sway with the trends and tendencies of inflation.

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I have this thing with shopping centers. I like only a few in Sao Paulo (3 or 4), considering that in Sao Paulo (city) there are 63 big malls (almost 300 in the state) , you can see why I don’t appreciate them very much.

The major part of those shopping centers is for A, B and C classes. If the chains decide to make more shopping centers to D and E classes, Sao Paulo will have 200!

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Hehe… Well, do you know that Singapore has more than ten major shopping districts and over 250 malls, and the city-state is only 683 sq. km.? In Singapore, shopping is a sport!

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Then, in 20 years, Singapore will no longer be a city-state, but a shopping-state!

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

It is now! Foreigners go there just to shop. For whatever reason, I don’t know why... Since most goods still come from the West, and the prices aren’t really comparatively lower. LOL

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Grace, you cannot fool me! You bought your Prada shoes there!

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

But going back to ”social apartheid,” I know this phenomenon is close to your heart. After all the term ”social apartheid” was coined in Brazil, hehe...

It’s simply appalling how the enclaves of the rich are walled apart from the slums. They become little countries instead of simple villages for the rich. Incredible!

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

If you want to see how things are in Sao Paulo, just look at this thread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=660402

But have something in mind: Sao Paulo is far the richest city in South America.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

The place is beautiful!

Even your slums are still prettier than the slums of the Third World part of Asia. LOL

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Ok Grace, next time I’ll find out something uglier for you! LOL!

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I think invisible class walls exist in all rich cities. Also in all rich cities shopping malls need the ’other’ class to work for them in their profit making endeavor. They are welcome to work behind the counters or dance in bars or even clean toilets but are not welcome as customers.

Only poor will opt for cheap labour. So poverty is welcome in rich cities. Only it should not visible from their glass palaces.

Its often depicted in Chaplin films- vagrants are shown door unless they have a service to offer and that could even be clowning to attract customers! And they most welcome as customers even if they come in borrowed suits and borrowed money...

I think, ’social apartheid’ sneaks in human mind and society subconsciously and rules...

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

You’re right, Madhuri. Social apartheid is the physical translation of the great economic divide.

Makes one wonder about the concept of marginalization. The concept implies a smaller minority as victims. But with social apartheid, it’s the majority (the poor) that is marginalized.

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Thats the power of MONEY!

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Grace, yes, MONEY can and has turned concept of marginalisation itself upside down! A clever ploy of all rulers our planet has seen?

LOL

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

That’s one more perversion...

Ramesh Balam

Ramesh Balam — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Can I do some window shopping in those malls or will they throw me out?

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I don’t know with Sau Paulo. But in Rio, I saw that anybody can meander and linger wherever they choose to!

Ramesh Balam

Ramesh Balam — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Thanks for the information, Grace.

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Of course, Ramesh! But I are like me, I really don’t recommend to do so, because I avoid shoppings because I never resist and buy something. Sao Paulo is the Brazilian capital of consumerism and those shoppings are very tempting!

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I meant If you are like me, not I are!

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Celso, what’s the worst scenario of social apartheid that you’ve seen with your own eyes?

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Grace, to be honest, I don’t know!. The lower classes don’t have access to schools, hospitals, good jobs, house, etc. And the worst is when you analyse the racial difference, that’s when you think ”this can’t be right!”.

For not be repetitive, I decided not to put same titles on the articles in this week, but this is the first one about the social apartheid. Tomorrow or Friday I’ll be publishing one about the Health System.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I think when socioeconomic inequality lasts for too long, the private sector steps in. Quite logical for them to do that really because upgrading the purchasing capacity of the business markets can only do well for businesses, eventually.

This is where Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) comes in. Business companies are required to do their bit for the socioeconomic upgrade of the communities. Since an uneven market also spells doom for business.

Pfizer, the multinational pharmaceutical company, is very strong in its CSR in the countries where it has branches. So are other pharma MNCs such as GlaxoSmithkline, etc.

There are many big businesses in Brazil that can help ease the economic deprivation of most.

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

There is very known term that is common here to define the difference between the regions in Brazil: dois Brasis (two Brazil).

In South Central region, this kind of mentality that you said is the responsible for the changes, but in

Northeastern Brazil things are bad, very bad. There are about 30 million people that still lives in the nineteenth century.

Cities where most of the population is composed of dwarfs or lepers because of

malnutrition or lack of medical care. Even cities were psoriasis is normal can be found.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Oh boy, being President of your country sure is a tough job, and being First Lady is even tougher! LOL

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Grace, I remembered something that I saw about 15 years ago. Black people were not allowed to enter in some places. Do I need to tell you something else?

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

What do you need to tell me? C’mon. Spill the beans!

G

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Sociopathic sociologists unite...

Staggered echelons of swimming pool-laden apartments overlooking the sprawling favellas - what a stark distinction... and how empty must be the lives of these notionally ”wealthy” people when they hover, vulture-like and casting shadows across the poor people whose simple, sincere lives are likely truly wealthier for all their spirit and joi de vivre.

The only true wealth in life is not of, or derived from, money or material possessions... and these people in the favellas probably know this better than the (most likely) selfish shadow-casting economic predators above them...

Shopping centres... ahh the Gruen Transfer.

Celso, a good article and poignant observations. :)

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Thank you!

This distinction is part of social fabric in Brazil. Anywhere you go, you’ll find out this kind of separation between rich and poor. And in Sao Paulo, the place where the really rich live, the things are more perverted yet.

Madhuri Katti

Madhuri Katti — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Two Brazil...two worlds...how stark differences can become...

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

And the differences are separated by walls!

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Walls, lakes, guns, electric fences, security systems, helicopters ...

Jaiyant Cavale

Jaiyant Cavale — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

This has to be one of the most interesting articles lately, and that too from the sociopathic sociologist. Class divisions based on income is some of the harsher realities o a developing nation. The so-called mega cities are mega because of the ;large influx of migrants from rural areas. These people are attracted to the larger cities because of these very malls that you are talking about. Naive as it may sound, malls and shopping have their lure and the job opportunities make it impossible to resist. The agrarian economy suffers and the urban areas decays. It is a lose lose situation.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

That is a result of population explosion. Ok, ok, blame it on the Catholic Church. LOL

Jaiyant Cavale

Jaiyant Cavale — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Well, the Church is the one that encourages population growth and mislead people in to believing abortions are ungodly. I wonder if having so many poor people and their poorer children with no food to eat and no clothes to wear is godly enough. When the poverty struck teen gazes at the brightly lit malls and the designer clothes, the seed of hatred is sowed.

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Well, the Catholics are incorrigible, really. They are stubborn as stubborn can get. The church’s being against artificial contraception is baloney. Now, poverty is their dilemma, too.

Jaiyant Cavale

Jaiyant Cavale — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

It is not just the catholics. Almost all the religious people have this fanatic tinge to them and that makes them blind in faith. They are the reasons why we have so much of poverty all around us. Why can’t all the money that churches and temples have be distributed among the poor?

Grace Calderon

Grace Calderon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

I think they have. I don’t know much about the temples, only the Catholic churches. They have charities and all. They help during time of disasters. And they are moneyed, huh!But they do have consistent efforts through outreach programs. And thereby making people get used to dole outs! LOL

Jaiyant Cavale

Jaiyant Cavale — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Well, when the money starts flowing in, in the name of charity, at least some amount of the money gets in to the wrong hands. These malls are the symbols of modern capitalism and the wealth that shows there is the result of increasing poor. Only when the poor increase can the rich survive, in developed countries.. Am I right?

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Believe or not, even the rural areas areas in Brazil this happens. In one hand, you have the a Paulista (from Sao Paulo) agriculture, organized and planned that, among other things, produces coffee and ethanol.

In the other part in Brazil, you have completely abandoned and dry.

Hollan

Hollan — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

That is crazy. I thought I got discriminated against when going into high class stores over here in the US!

Do tourist shop in these malls? I always wonder why people travel to another country to see what is in their country already. I’d prefer shopping on the street any day and actually helping the local economy at the root!

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

There are lots of people from all South America that come to buy Dolce & Gabbana, Armani, Versace, Prada, Tiffany in Sao Paulo’s shopping centers. This city has become a refuge for richs from this part of the world, where they can buy ridiculous expensive things with no guilt or remorse.

Atul

Atul — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Celso, here in India, this discrimination is kind of accepted by the poor themselves. In India the poor never visit the shopping malls because they are too confused to enter the hub at the first place. The malls have all big-brands clogged together and the products available are beyond the purchasing power of a man who only makes Rs 100 a day( which is barely good enough to make ends meet).

Brazil on the contrary suffers from a different problem. It is sad to know that people are not allowed to make it to the shopping malls. This way, I never see social apartheid ending in Brazil. Instead, the gap would just keep widening, leading to worse problems.

Celso Camargo

Celso Camargo — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

Unfortunately, that’s the reality. Part of the society already knows this, but it is a job that will require much effort and decades to change the situation.

Oscar

Oscar — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 00:00:00 +0000

WE’ve got both here as well, preactically on top of eachother..There are malls where I can’t even afford a pair of socks within blocks of flea market type shanties where I go buy my socks...